Dealing With Toxic Fandoms | Stuff You Like Extra

Dealing With Toxic Fandoms | Stuff You Like Extra

hey so I saw your at the last Jedi
review and I agree with you on all points loved the film but I’ve been
seeing heaps and heaps of people piling hate on it since it came out and I feel
really irrationally angry about it all which isn’t helpful so do you have any
tips for dealing with toxic fandoms? so thank you anon I’m glad you liked the
review I feel you on the irrational anger and yes I am here to help. to start
here is my very basic advice which is going to sound very obvious: stay away
from places that you know are going to make you angry. you would be surprised
how much time I spend doing things which I know are going to be bad for me buying
supermarket pizza or browsing Twitter choose to do something better: go read
all your bookmarked fanfic or learn how to twirl a lightsaber or talk to your
friends maybe meet them in person maybe send them a nice long email if they live
in Chile maybe you could post them a piece of dead tree with your handwriting
on it the possibilities are endless the point being it’ll die down soon enough
and the toxicity will move on to the next outrage which may or may not be
Star Wars related I mean it might take a couple of weeks it might take a month
but pretty soon something else will draw the attention of angry people who like
to be angry on the internet and then everyone who likes the thing will get
some peace. but be assured anon you are doing a far healthier thing
psychologically by focusing on the things which you like rather than the
things which you don’t particularly if the things that you don’t like are not
actually things that you can change for example I stopped watching Doctor Who
when I stopped having fun maybe I’ll pick it up again soon maybe I won’t but
it doesn’t really bother me that much if I like the new season that I’ll watch it
if I don’t don’t I won’t but no harm no foul either way there are plenty of
other good things in the world and my identity is not tied up in having to
like one particular piece of media besides focusing on terrible things
which you hate is just going to make you angry and particularly in the case of
media which already exists it’s going to make you feel powerless and angry which
is not a good combination. I tend to find the bigger the fandom the more toxic it
is or rather the more toxic the toxic parts are if you have 10 people in your
fandom and one of them is a jerk then basically no one’s going to talk to them
and so their toxicity is contained if you have a hundred people and ten of them
are jerks then they’re going to feed off each other’s jerkishness the bigger the
fandom the worse it can feel and Star Wars is a huge fandom. that being said
the signs of the toxic fandom are the same regardless of
size: entitlement shaming harassment doxing you know the drill
hell hath no fury like a Steven Universe fan who thinks that harassment death
threats and rape threats are the things that you should send to a teenage girl
because she drew a cartoon character in a style that you did not approve of.
there is no reasoning with this and yes most people grow out of it though some
people don’t, but you can’t make a person grow out of it. you can’t make them
ashamed of it they probably will be in ten years but
then again they might not. so here’s my other useful piece of advice on fandom:
keep it small and I don’t mean just be in small fandoms no I mean be in small
fandom groups. go find people who love the thing in the way that you love the
thing and cultivate actual friendship relationships with them not in a Mean
Girls kind of way but in a: you like me and I like you and we like the thing so
let’s talk about it kind of way. if you can find one fan friend per fandom who
you like and genuinely enjoy spending time with then you are pretty much quids
in. if you can find half-dozen that’s just about perfect. make friends with
other fans who are good people and be a good person yourself. after all if you
want a shiny beautiful sparkly fandom then we need to not be part of the
problem. I’m pretty sure that everyone feels like screaming obscenities into
the void every now and again well I mean most people do, but remember those are
other real people over there. be your best self in fandom hang out with other
people who do likewise. disagree with other people all you like, vigorously if
you like, but do it respectfully and with emphasis on the fact that you still like
them as a person even if you disagree with their opinions. and for the love of
all that’s sensible don’t engage with the screamers unless being extremely
calm and reasonable in the face of unmitigated fury is entertaining for you.
I remember it used to be entertaining for me. that was a while ago. it is likely
that will grow out of it in which case they might be a reasonable person to be
around in ten years or they might not in which case they’ll just be miserable for
the rest of their lives and there is not much you can do about that. but for your
own peace of mind anon choose to be joyful and if that
means blacklisting a tag for a couple of weeks or sticking your fingers in your
ears and singing the force theme or just writing terrible fanfic instead of
reading tumblr consider it a small nice to pay for a life in fandom that
you actually like you loved The Last Jedi I love The Last Jedi enjoy that
feeling it’s a good feeling you’re allowed to enjoy it. oh and also if you
want to join a non toxic fandom the Zombies Run fandom is quite small but
also full of people who do regular exercise and so they are supremely chill
and the Thunderbirds Are Go fandom is also extremely chill I’m small and
friendly if you want to tell your fandom horror stories in the comments then you
can most certainly do so especially if they are entertaining but if you want to
leave your really good and positive fandom stories in the comments – that’s
even better because joy is a good and underrated thing and we should strive
for more of it in our lives thanks for the asking on I hope this was
in some way helpful and I’ll see you all in the next episode you

Comments (100)

  1. I really enjoy the parts of the Emma Mills fandom that I've seen. Mostly because she herself cultivates positivity and shares beautiful works people have made based on her books, partly because when I do see something about it that she hasn't shared herself, it makes me feel privy to some sort of inside joke, and a little bit because I cannot remember a time I have tweeted her or left a comment on one of her videos, or made a video response (when those were still a thing) that she has not responded in some way. she is just a quiet, peaceful person who supports her supporters and that just makes me so happy to know her work.

  2. Follow the Golden Rule even if the other person isn't. And try to find some common ground. That's my advice. I once talked to this other person on Twitter about a political issue and they thought calling me names and ridiculing me would somehow prove their point. Anyways, I saw that they were also a Steven Universe fan since they had fan art on their twitter and told them I also am a fan of SU. After that they stopped calling me names and we began talking about the show instead.

    I haven't watched the Last Jedi so I can't say if I like it or not, but great video.

  3. Humans are frighteningly good at taking sides and casting the other side as horrible monsters. It's a weakness but it's the flip side of our greatest strength – the ability to work together in groups of thousands or tens of thousands of people who are not close kin. No other animal can do that.

    Have you read the Dragonlance novels? I think you'd like them, especially since you like D&D.

  4. I haven't used any water recently because I've been bathing in tears of bitter TLJ haters since December 14th

  5. Something that amused me about your overall message in this video is that it reflects the teachings and knowledge the Jedi try to instill in their students lol. Seek peace, don't find reasons to be angry all the time.

  6. That weird moment when you are from Chile

  7. Disney Fairies fandom. Extremely small, prone to a few shipping wars because there are SOOOO many characters but otherwise chill and nontoxic.

  8. Myself and my partner created a DW cosplay group last year after some really bad experiences in the community. Nearly two years on we have a manageable group of folks who are all there for the same thing. They want to help each other, be there for one another and encourage positive stuff that may lead to better things in each others' every day lives. We know there are bad stuff out there in the community (and I'm reminded of it on a weekly basis, and we still sometimes get drama) but we deal with it by positive re-enforcment to those who feel they need it. It's not much, but if it makes one fans' day then it's worth it 🙂

  9. The Inazuma eleven fandom is the most accepting fandom I've ever been in. It's also so the smallest. But in any case, nearly everyone ships different characters, since there are a lot of important characters in the show. And yet, I have never seen a hate post about any ship.

    Though maybe since my other latest obsession is Voltron legendary defender… it's just the contrast.

    I think that the Voltron fandom is fighting the way Romeo and Juliet's families were fighting in their play. No one knows who started it, but they both blame each other. It's a shame, since the show is a goldmine, but instead of making theories, people spend their time defending their ships.

  10. What do you do when the toxicity goes in the other direction? See, I'm a HUGE Disney fan and I can say with confidence that I have expert knowledge of their filmography and know what I'm talking about more than most people. Frozen is a terrible film, one of the worst the studio has ever put out. Sorry, but it is and all the "defenses" in the world won't make it not terrible. Even people as knowledgeable as I am who liked it acknowledge that it's a bad film but they like it anyway, which is fine, I have plenty of films like that myself. And yet, vast numbers of people hold it up like it's some untouchable sacred cow and most of those people, within five minutes of discussion, show that they know next to nothing about Disney while claiming to be huge fans. I used to enjoy Disney fandom but these idiot non-Disney-fans have completely overrun all the fandom spaces so it's impossible to avoid them. What do I do about that?

  11. The people posting hate about Star Trek Discovery really entertain me, mainly because they seem to fall into three groups (with crossover) 1. people who didn't watch previous Star Trek. 2. people that aren't watching Disc. 3. people that think calling a show I like awful will convince me to watch a show they like (Family Guy in space)

  12. Interesting video. I would say you do not need to seek people out who are like you, but those who respect you. My sister does not like Star Wars at all, but is not going to belittle me for liking it or go on angry rants about it. What has been sad about this affair is that I honestly think there are not that many people I have seen who dislike the film (and many of those who do are pretty much of the sane 'I thought it was a bit silly' type, but the anger it has inspired in some people is just mad).

    As some people seem to miss the point here, she was not saying hating the film is toxic, but the way disagreement is being expressed by some. A toxic fandom is for example:

    1 – attacking individuals involved, as opposed to the material. E.g. the attacks against the actors playing Finn, Rose and Ray due to their genders/race.

    2 – expressing opinions in an aggressive and hostile way. E.g. the people online swearing at others just because they did not hate the film.

    3 – taking extreme actions which distract from the film and all constructive discussion about it. E.g. flooding comment pages with petitions to have the film removed.

    These kinds of actions are very different to simply saying I dislike the film, which is much less aggressive and hostile.

  13. Good video. If I can get over the fourth season of Sherlock. other people can get over the Last Jedi.

  14. Speaking of Doctor Who, at which point did you stop enjoying it? Not trying to yell at you or anything, just wondering. I ask because I found that Seasons 8 and 9 were fairly lackluster, trying to force the Doctor to be goofy when Capaldi is a more serious actor. But Season 10 absolutely nailed 12's character, and I personally loved the Christmas Special as well. The latter seems to have some mixed opinions, but I still recommend giving it a watch :).

  15. My goodness, is THAT what the Steven Universe drama was? I've only ever heard it alluded to because of how late I joined the fandom, but wow, that's tragic.

  16. Fun fandom story time!

    Way back in the day, when AoL was King and authors were suing fanfic writers left right and center, there was a small Roleplay by BBS (Messaging board, for you young'uns) game based on Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series. Now, fen of the era instantly are wary because this was Not Allowed. These had to be private, by email and invite only. Having a group like this be public invited C&D orders. Or worse.

    But the head of this RP group (aptly named "Ruins Weyr") claimed she had written permission from the author.

    Oh, we sweet, unassuming youth.

    Long story short, the person who ran this group became more and more anxious and paranoid and lashed out regularly at players. People would leave, join, and more would leave. She controlled all the "random" events, riding roughshod over anyone's roleplay intents to set the story as she liked. And ultimately, I think the Lawyers sniffed her out and she couldn't avoid it anymore.

    Ruins Weyr, as apropo, was eventually abandoned. Another dead relic of a strange time in Fandom. Of course, this was back when fanfic all started with written and carefully worded disclaimers xD

  17. Your Dr Who example of dropping something when you're not having fun is a good one. If you apply that philosophy to the things you're into you'll find you will have more time, money and effort you can give to the thing you truly like. So I've pretty much dropped anime and superhero comics from the stuff I like because I just wasn't having any fun with them anymore. If a video game or novel isn't clicking for me despite the great reviews I drop them I pick up the next thing from the pile. After Lost, BSG and Heroes I promised myself I would never hate-watch a show again. When Star Trek Discivery came out I really wanted to like that show but four episodes in and I wasn't having fun. Star Trek was tv for me when I was a teenager. But this new show is complete trash so I dropped it. Fandoms will never become toxic if they adopt the simple philosophy of "If you're not having fun then drop it and pick up the next thing from the pile".

  18. My own personal advice on encountering toxic fandoms is to checkout the form of media everyone is going crazy for, yourself don't let others behavior influence your judgement. Secondly, avoid searching on Tumblr, Deviant Art or other sites associated fan art posting; that's where most toxic "fans" tend to thrive. (Not everyone on those sites are like this, but nevertheless they've gained infamy for this just the same.)

  19. It's particularly disheartening when people you've bonded with in other fandoms start spewing shit against a thing you like in a way that's just unreasonable in another fandom you share. As in, calling real people disgusting, paedophiles, N*zis, and abuse/rape apologists because they like a thing or want two particular characters to kiss.

    And there really is no other way to deal with this than closing off your community (like in an invite-only discord server) and going on a blocking spree. It's somewhat shitty that the onus is on the ones harassed. I just wish that the providers of social media platforms (especially Tumblr) would respond better in cases of online harassment and took things like hate speech (like antisemitic slurs) and suicide baiting more seriously.

    Sometimes an opinion is just an opinion, but at other times that opinion is an indicator for really shitty views in real life, like racism or sexism (like when hating on a character just because she's played by an Asian actress). In that case throwing away the entire friend is the only option sometimes.

  20. I find "toxic fandom" to be redundant. Then again, I seem to always attract the people who will find that one tiny point of disagreement and go on a crusade to purge you from the fandom, so I honestly expect even "chill" fandoms to go from 0 to Jihad in 0.2 seconds.

  21. The toxicity of some Steven Universe fans blows my mind. The show is all about tolerance, acceptance and love. Yet there are fans who exhibit none of these qualities. How can they love the show so much and have no appreciation of its essence? Then there are Trekkies who racist. What? HOW?!

  22. I have to say I do agree with what you said, though I feel I was the toxic part of a fandom. You see I was apart of a Star Trek RPG. For a while and I knew it was going to be bad for me. Being the kinda person I am and having the personality that I do have. but I was suffering from major righters block and I thought that I could just come in do a story or two to get my imagination flowing once again. But I don't know maybe because of my obsesse nature and perscation complex I started to feel like people were ignoring me. Or didn't like me so I started to feel frustrated, and fearful.

    And well it went down from there. Fear lead to anger, anger lead to hate and hate lead to suffering. Which seems oddly apt seen as you were discussing Star Wars.

    As for the new movie, I thought it was fine. Just kind of ok. I really don't think it deserves the hate it's getting.

  23. I have a strange problem where I'd like to be a part of the small book fandoms that I like but I also don't have much to say about said books. I generally just like and reblog other people's things.

  24. cough cough The Channel Awesome fandom cough cough*

  25. I've decided to not look at comment sections of Game of Thrones videos because I just spend so much time getting riled up by them. For one, there will always be at least one "Sansa's a stupid bitch and I want her to die" comment and there is no faster way to rile me up. But also ever since we started getting accurate leaks it's been no fun interacting with the fandom when the shows go live. So much "that was predictable", "the show has jumped the shark" etc that it almost tainted how I view the show, when in actual fact I DID enjoy Season 7, despite some flaws in logic. I don't think it would have been as "predictable" had I not read the leaks eight months prior to the airing, nor do I think most of the fandom would have found it so.

  26. BTW if you're on Tumblr and don't have Tumblr Savior, I highly recommend downloading it for free as an extension on Chrome. It can help reduce the amount of toxicity you get faced with just by blacklisting tags like "anti __" or maybe specific "____ spoilers" or a pairing. I ship a lot of rare-pairs and I'm quiet and cool about it and I'll reblog stuff from them because, hey yo that's my ship, but things can get pretty heated when the main ships or just other ships feel rivaled by it, like in the new star wars trilogy. There's a LOT of shipping battles going on and listen, I just want to read the fanfic for my ship, and that's it.

  27. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I love watching your videos, please continue. Love Malin

  28. Be like Michael, start with the Man in the Mirror! ^_^

  29. I love both Avatar: The Last Airbender and the Legend of Korra, and I am very passionate about defending the Legend of Korra because I do genuinely love it and feel it is a good show (some of the reasons I love the Legend of Korra are some of the reasons I love the Last Jedi, actually) but it does get exhausting to do this constantly, reiterating the same points again and again. If you're not having fun doing this, defending a thing you like, stop, so I tend to now only have these discussions if I want to engage in an actual conversation (like it's just not fun to have an internet argument about Korra is a mary sue (she isn't, and so insert the princess bride gif here)). Of course, that being said the Legend of Korra fandom has some toxic elements and it's best just to find blogs/people you like and go from there. Like you said, the smaller you make fandom the better, that's great advice.

    Also, don't get involved with shipping. As someone who only has the fleeting interest in shipping and watches from a distance, even if you like a pairing, just read fanfiction/write fanfiction and stop. Like, there's so much drama I observe and it just looks terrible. Don't do it. Just. Don't. Like, I'll happily defend the endgame pairing of TLOK when needed in an actual discussion, but at the same time, this isn't that important to me. Try and remove yourself emotionally from fandom, and only really try and have fun with it. Getting emotionally involved too much will only lead to hurt. Keep your opinions separate from your identity and know they might change.

  30. Wonderful SYL, one thing I've always striven for is to remember that there are real people behind those silly screen names, I'm still shocked some of the toxic fandoms that can grow up with media that is pretty much all positive(Universe, FiM and so on),

  31. It's like that gambling advert- when the fun stops, you stop. Fandom can feel like a gambling addiction- you go deeper and deeper and you throw more of yourself into the fandom and it never gives back what you put into it. It's okay to withdraw yourself from fandom if you're getting emotionally exhausted. It's ok to chill. You're not any less of a fan because you aren't putting an incredibly long and passionate defence of the thing you like. You're still a fan. You still like it. Accept that people may dislike/like the thing you dislike/like and removing yourself from drama is nothing terrible.

  32. I've been the admin of a forum for a certain violent video game series for fifteen years now and my number one recommendation for preventing toxicity is when you get toxic people, firmly explain why their behavior is not acceptable. The vast majority of them will settle down, a few will escalate it and then it's time to suspend them for a hefty period or ban them.

    Humans are social creatures, so only the truly anti-social will choose toxicity over social opportunity.

  33. I think gatekeeping is the toxic fandom behavior that annoys me the most. "What you ship what? You liked what movie? You watched the anime but haven't read the manga? How dare you?! Get out of my sight!! The only true fans are the ones who agree with me and my preferences!!"

  34. The best experience with fandoms I had was The Mentalist fandom. It was super small and everyone knew everyone. There was this ONE person that everyone knew to avoid but that was about it. No drama, no toxicity, just a group of people loving a show. It was amazing but I dont expect to ever see/experience that again.

    In my experience, the best medicine against toxicity is blocking. Unfortunately YouTube doesn't have a blocking system, otherwise i'd be blocking quite a few people.

  35. my main fandoms are Once Upon A Time and Star Wars. Once, I had a passing thought that Kylo Ren could be Rey's father. I wasn't serious about it but I posted it in a group because I hadn't seen it suggested before. I was incessantly ridiculed and told I was intellectually inferior because apparently it's impossible for an intelligent person to look at those two characters and think there's a slim possibility that Kylo is thirteen years or more older than Rey. 

    Most Once Upon A Time groups actually have people with sensibly balanced views, there are things they like about the show and things they don't like about the show. On the other hand, there are those fans who think  the show is infallible, the writers are infallible, the network is infallible, and anyone who thinks otherwise should stop watching. I was part of a group where the moderators thought like that. When I asked what makes the new Tiana character "Tiana" from the Disney movie and not just a generic princess {expecting a rational answer that would maybe even prove me wrong} I got the snooty response that I should read the article. I explained further that the article gave nothing connecting her with Tiana and it feels like we're supposed to say "yay it's Tiana" just because she's black, I was accused of being inflammatory and obsessed with race, told I shouldn't watch because I dare criticize one element of the show, and mercilessly bullied because I was mistaken for a "crybaby" that can't handle the stories differing from Disney {the show runners had outright classified this particular character as being the Disney version. I still would have accepted some deviation but this character has almost nothing that makes her "Tiana" as opposed to a generic princess}. Did I mention all this bullying was done BY THE MODERATORS. Then they kicked me out for being "inflammatory" but really it was probably because those people couldn't handle anyone critically evaluating any part of the show {one of them I had interacted with many times before both in and out of that group, she can be analytical at times but refuses to critically evaluate the show or statements by the writers}.

  36. I've experienced both positives and negatives in my little corner of the Fire Emblem fandom, and all over one fictional character who shall remain nameless. The positives are with me in thinking this character is not at all bad. One negative pretty much dissed me for liking this character over the more "developed" ones (who happened to be all their favorites).

    My answer. Why do people feel the need to go to war over fiction? That's what I'd like to know. Okay, you don't like so-and-so. Fine. You like The Last Jedi? Fine as well. You don't like so-and-so. Okay then, don't come down on the people who do, and vice versa.

    So, yeah, I've seen fandoms at their best and the worst.

  37. When you said send your friend a piece of dead tree with your handwriting on it I first thought you meant, send them a branch which you've written on… then I realized you meant a hand written letter on what is probably pretty nice stationary paper

  38. I've been really lucky that I never really encountered very toxic elements in my fandoms (Doctor Who, Hetalia, Yuri on ice).  It probably helps that I am part of a fan group where I do interact with real people and not just online and I tend to have a positive attitude.  I also just don't to places that have nothing but negativity.  The heart of fandom is about enjoying something and sharing that love and connection with other people.

  39. 0:30 Oh, boy! Do I fall for that too.

    Specially the two pizza for £4 at my Tesco Express. Man, that crap is WAAAAY too tempting…

  40. I really want to dive deep into discussion about TLJ. But because the internet is a large place it's just very hard to find people who are interested in arguments besides "plot-holes!!!", "carbon copy!!!", "mary sue!!!!", "darth EMO lol!!", "too many marvel jokes!!!", "disney controls EVERYTHING!!!"…. Add the general toxicity to that and it becomes tiresome very fast to search the internet for the right communities…

  41. Do you watch, or have you ever watched Elementary?

  42. TW: fictional rape mention

    I feel like separating the good and bad parts of fandom isn't necessarily as easy as all that though. There've been a lot of incidents when I've got commenters on my fanfic who seemed like reasonable, intelligent people who I could engage with, and then surprise! Everyone hates women. And this has made me kind of reticent about really engaging with anyone, tbh (I mean, my Big Fandom Horror Story is the time I wrote a story about a really ugly, messy, complicated – but consensual – relationship between a male and female character, and one of the people who seemed to really like and engage with it later went on to write this horrible misogynist thing using sexual violence to punish the woman in it, which morally appals me on every level, but I can see the influence of my work in it and so I'm left dealing with a lot of lingering guilt and stress, and it's spoiled lots of things in the fandom I used to enjoy).

  43. It might be because I don't really engage very strongly with any fandoms online (I've tried; I can't even be an active forum member for more than a couple months at a time), but I've never really had any negative interactions concerning fandoms. (Individuals, occasionally, but not generally in relation to the fandom directly.) I'm particularly surprised to hear that Steven Universe can have such toxic fans, considering how much it seems to be about acceptance (I haven't seen it myself).

    On the subject of positive fandom, however, I have seen some pretty wonderful communities out there. Specific communities that come to mind include the Daria fandom, particularly the PaperPusher Message Board, which is full of aspiring and accomplished authors, all sharing their love of the characters and of writing, creating whole new worlds and sub-fandoms. Possibly because of the higher age of the forum mods and broadly-acknowledged community leaders, the Daria fandom seems to have had a higher level of civility and thought-out discourse. Trolls were quickly ejected, and complete sentences encouraged. I've seldom found a more welcoming community, and in spite of my lack of forum focus, I managed to stick with them for a few years.

    Possibly showing my age, I recall the Fanfiction Mailing List being a similarly friendly community, where criticism was always couched either constructively or with an explicit declaration of opinion-not-fact. (Or maybe this is a good-old-days nostalgia thing. Or both.) At the time, it was a largely anime-oriented community, but everything was welcome, and I recall a fair number of fics from comics and books as well. Even my amateurish twaddle (as I now recognize it) was not criticized overly-harshly.

    And here I'm going to stick my neck out a little: I know that a fandom that large has had its problems, and I've even seen the fringes of it a little, but for such a big fandom, My Little Pony seems amazingly open and positive. I don't want to get into any debates over ED vs. FimFN or what squabbles and negativity exist in the community; I know it's not entirely clean. I just want to say that my own experience has been almost entirely positive, and I've also seen the community come together to both celebrate triumphs and mourn tragedies in the lives of its active members.

    More concretely, I've seen communities come together over tragedies in ways real-life small towns would envy. Two events that stick out in my mind involve death, because of course that sticks out: One author of various fanfics (mostly, but not entirely, anime-related) had been struggling with depression. This was fairly well-known on the forums he frequented. Fandom had become a fairly important part of his life, and he was in the middle of some pretty epic stories when he committed suicide. Forums and the comments sections on came alive with condolences for his loved ones, shock and sadness at his passing, hope that he was now, at least, beyond the pain. Several people asked if there was a way to offer money to any dependents he might have had. If there were any trolls delighting in his suicide, I didn't see them, lost in the deluge of well-wishing and genuine mourning.

    The circumstances of the other death were different in almost every way. The author was a man in his mid-50s who wrote fanfics based on American TV, and he died of a heart attack. Unlike the first one, he had no one in his personal life who shared his passion for fandom; in fact, almost no one even knew. One relative found his username, made an account on a forum related to one of his favorite fandoms, and informed the community that he had died, and that pretty much no one else even knew that he might have online friends who would want to know, and that and the details I mentioned are pretty much all anyone ever got from his family. The news took longer to spread (the author hadn't been very active in the forums, pretty much only posting his stories), but as it did, again, the response was nothing but genuine mourning and well-wishing. I don't think his family knows, but there are hundreds of people who would help share their grief if they could.

  44. Thank you for this. Ive been going through a bit of existential crisis with the SW wars fandom right now, as i got sucked up and became one of the defenders of the film (but ended up devolving into what was akin to a BvS fan.) I think your advice is great; detoxing your fanboy once in while and having a bit of perspective is absolutely essential.

    Keep up the great work.

  45. I've received more bile from pro-TLJ fans than the film's detractors. I don't doubt they're out there but still… That being said, Hate Watching a show can be very entertaining, unless you believe bad art is a moral failing.

  46. Hey, Jill did the thing! We wrote about it too back in August, I guess we can add Star Wars as one of those Toxic Fandoms now too…*sigh*

  47. Still waiting for the toxicity that MLP;FiM has been getting from 2010 to end….. its going into season 8 next year

  48. Happy Safe New Year to you all. Seeing Last Jedi on Sunday (not much of a Star Wars fan) so I guess I'll see what all the anger in about. Still, for me it was a good year to be a fan of things. Got a good Spider-Man movie this year, got the first legitimately good female Superhero movie this year, got Stranger Things 2, got Troll Hunter season 2, got Made in Abyss, got more Better Call Saul, got a solid rebound year in South Park, got Cuphead, got Breath of the Wild, got Baby Groot and Company, got Coco, got more Voltron, and of course got more Ms. Bearup. There was a lot of stuff I'm in the fandom of that made me happy. There was a couple of new things I became a fan of because it made me happy. Hopefully you found a few things and shared them successfully. (PS- Successfully shared Animaniacs with my Nieces and Nephew! It still translates!) Peace on Earth, goodwill to all.

  49. Jill you’re amazing

  50. 0:56 I'm an angry person who likes to be angry on the internet, and how dare you say that to me?! The fuck's you're problem? You want a piece of me?!


  52. God i hate that Word..The ones who used it might be a bit ..annoying,i get however how there are Assholes in fandoms..In SW i have very big worries about our Great mary Sue Jesus Rey But overall i just dont care about drama in fandoms or whatever peoples like..There have been some nutcases who started to harrass that Steven universe artist because he or she drawn some SU character thin/Sexy and the whole Dream daddy Reversed into Hot Milfs hate..its the internet

  53. My most geekiest friend sadly died a few months ago of cancer, so I miss someone to talk to about the stuff I like. Felt weird to watch The Last Jedi and not being capable to share that with my friend with whom I watched basically everything together.

  54. I'm not angry, it's just a bad film, especially from a filmmaking perspective.

  55. Thanks for the wonderful advice. This video needs to be smeared all over the nerdy world like butter

  56. If there's a situation that impacts you negatively, you remove yourself from the situation. There are some forums where that might be harder, like in school, but with a fandom, you have the option to opt out, when it takes a turn that makes you uncomfortable. With a fandom as big as Star Wars, you shouldn't have issues with finding like-minded people, if that what you wish to do. I personally haven't seen any of the extreme toxicity in the SW fandom, because I simply do not surround myself with people who would say things that are racist and/or anti-women. I've made the choice not to seek out the places where I might run into it, so I while I'm aware it's happening, it's not something I'm bombarded with.

    That being said, to me the question originally sounded as if the asker could not stand any criticism towards TLJ, which I believe in being too sensitive. Nothing is so good, that you should not be able to accept valid criticism on it. Expressing what I did not like about TLJ, is as much taking part of a healthy fandom as well as expressing what I loved. As long as the people voicing their opinions are not doing anything immoral (e.g. racism, sexism aso) and are keeping a proper tone about the subjects, all voices should be welcome in a healthy fandom.

  57. toxic fandoms are the WORST. i just started watching steven universe after years of avoiding it due to the awful fandom and i absolutely love it. i cannot believe that a show about love, acceptance, peace and positivity has such a poisonous fanbase. i mostly avoid the fandom because i have irl friends to discuss it with which is great, but such a great show being tarnished with such a bad reputation is tragic.

  58. I was in Anime club at school and I thank my lucky stars that the club I was apart of was the best kind of atmosphere you can imagine for a fandom. I watched series I never would have found on my own, we'd have weekends where we'd carpool to japanese grocery stores, go to conventions together, and talk about what series we each liked, getting openly pasionate when we agreed, and remaining respectful when we disagreed. Miss those days when I was surrounded by people like that.

  59. I'm an admin on the shipping wikia (I know bad idea) and at one point a whole bunch of Voltron fans came and started extreme editing the wiki to bash other ships, and me and one other admin had to secure three pages and block over 20 people. Most of the time when the fandoms being sucky, it's easier to ignore, but this one just made me so sad.

  60. Thank you for this. Couldn't agree more.

  61. I love this episode bc it's all very true. I'm in both SU and Star Wars fandom and the atmosphere is so horrid sometimes. Voltron honestly rivals (possibly succeeds) both of them bc none of the assholes can use the term pedophilia right to save their goddamn lives either (and that's not even going into details – oh god please don't make me relive the ongoing shitfest anyone, I'm begging). Overwatch is also rough if you dare ship something that isn't gay – even if you're queer yourself or if it's in addition to m/m or f/f ships! X_x

  62. Your first piece of advice is great not only for fandoms but for certain spaces in general. I left Tumblr (well, not completely, but I don’t go through my dashboard anymore) because a debate on an issue involved someone insulting those who disagree even though it was a complex issue. I didn’t like being insulted for my opinion. I also feel like seeing posts from people I wasn’t following (through reblogs, some of which were from people who disagreed with the original post) was warping my political views so much that I started internalising bigotry (as a bisexual I shouldn’t be thinking that media in which a bisexual character ends up with an opposite-gender partner is inherently problematic because what happens if I end up with an opposite-gender partner?). It was a good decision not only because I was able to leave that toxicity but also because I was freeing myself from an addictive behaviour (scrolling through my Tumblr dashboard every day). Sometimes I miss all the awesome art and other posts but I don’t want to start relapsing. I even consider myself a ‘recovering Tumblr user’ as I’m trying to be more open minded and listen to a wider range of opinions. Not all of Tumblr is bad but the bad stuff messed me up.

  63. I'll admit it was tough being a Ghostbusters fan during the whole reboot controversy.

  64. Positive Story: My brother and I strongly disagreed about The Last Jedi and spent the better part of an hour discussing it over Christmas dinner.
    We now still love each other and are seeing a couple more movies together on Monday.  🙂

  65. I don't post many fandom-related things here, but I have other channel on which I post videos in Polish about various cartoons. I found Steven Universe Fandom to be by far the most verbally violent and unpleasant to deal with. One would think that fans of the show that is famous for featuring many great LGBT+ characters would be tolerant towards people of all genders and sexualities. No such luck. The mere fact that I do not act, look, sound and speak in a manner that is not overly feminine but yet have an audacity to use female pronounce seems to offend fans of the show. And so each time I post a video about SU, 75% of the comments that appear under it are not about the video itself but about how my voice doesn't sound female enough and thus I should identify as male.

  66. The Sonic the Hedgehog fandom is the worst. Never mind all the creepy furries and their erotic fanfics. In terms of games they’re never happy.

  67. RuPaul’s drag race season seven.

  68. You can take one look at this girl and know everything she's going to say before you even watch the video.

  69. Oh my god the Supernatural fandom. Twitter makes people evil, I swear. I went to a Supernatural Con in September and it was the most fun I've ever had since I was 19 and got to go to Edinburgh for the release of the 7th HP book. So naturally I thought, hey, I've been putting off twitter, I should join the twitter, because all of the people I met at the con were kind awesome people! And then I walked into the ognoing civil war, the ongoing ship war, and a since ended war between one of the shows stars and apparently the most VIP fan I've ever seen. Also you can't avoid politics getting involved, especially if one of the cast members if the founder of the American Capitalist Party. And it is in generally all REALLY REALLY toxic. But then on the other hand, it seems like literally everyone is involved in charities that the show's cast supports, and they'll re-share tons of amazing stories and ideas and ways to help people who are disadvantaged, and that's amazing! But then that same person will attack the stars wives, or children, or other stars, and it's just… ugh. Supernatural fandom what is wrong with you? I have yet to find a single person who I feel like I am real friends with on Twitter, which makes me sad. At least I have you amazing fanfiction! hugs aO3

  70. I decided to be careful when I started following Star Wars related things on twitter, and have only followed parody character accounts. I don't need to see people bashing my ships. I like my ships, and I know not everyone else likes mine, so I am going hold it close and protect it, and just follow Tough Love Leia, Bad Father Han Solo, Basic Rey, Confused Rey, Awesome Rey, Luke's Force Ghost, Young Ben Solo, And Emo Kylo Ren. Those are enough for the Star wars fandom.

  71. Finally saw it. It was… okay…ish…. It was overly long, more than a bit messy, and Luke was not what I wanted in a big way. Still loved the ending, when Luke felt like Luke again. Liked Yoda popping up for a last hurrah (probably spelled that incorrectly). Still, the biggest complaint was at least 40 minutes of film that could have been cut out and not have impacted the plot. That is a lot of filler. Happy New Year's!

  72. I have found several really friendly groups in fandoms but they smaller groups like you mentioned. I am in a couple of FB groups that are connected to a podcast I listen to. They are groups of people who like the podcast and also like Harry Potter, or GoT or Knitting and a few others.

    It really is just a bunch of nice ladies who like true crime and also like yarn craft for example. We all share our projects and talk about interests and the podcast. Everyone is supportive and encouraging and helpful. We can disagree peacefully. Whereas the official group for the podcast is every other day people having a huge group-wide fight about stupid things.

    I try and stay out of large fandom disputes. Especially Star Wars nonsense. But I did have my say on Doctor Who new companion silliness (if you can get on board with all of the rest of our gender seem a silly thing to get hung up on) and only because someone asked why people have a problem with people who don't like the new doctor sight unseen.

  73. That was such a wonderful video, thanks for making it! Quick question though, are you going to give the new Doctor Who series a chance (what with a new Doctor and all)?

  74. Ehhh… I'd avoid the "small fandoms = small toxicity" idea. I'm in a couple musical theater fandoms. There's one play in particular in which my fanfiction archive is fairly well-known and I had a hand in getting the category on in the first place. That means that I can't really say anything negative even to the most toxic of people because then I'm on a bully list. People stick to their own in fandoms like that because they already feel small.

    I liken it to a city vs. a small town. You expect there to be assholes in a huge place where everyone is packed in together and simple mathematics tells you there are going to be a lot of them. In a small town you figure everyone will be nice because everybody knows each other, but really it's a fine way to make enemies for the slightest gossip.

  75. Yes, Zombies, Run! is awesome!

  76. I stuck with Supernatural until halfway through season 12. I know SPN is notorious for having an awful fandom, but I managed to carve out my little corner of positivity. It's rough and sometimes you have to stop following people you used to like, but it is possible. Even now that I don't watch it anymore I still follow the same people because I love seeing them happy.

  77. Star Wars has the most toxic fanbase. A major majority of the internet can be so nasty when it comes to the topic.

  78. My favorite fandom I've ever been in is the fandom for the French Romeo et Juliette musical. Almost all of my internet friends are from the RetJ fandom, and everyone I've met has been really chill!

  79. I hate to be the voice of reason, but I really feel this needs to be said to the Star Wars community. Please stop the hate on both sides. Stop the making fun of either the expanded Universe or new canon (or as some have called it as an insult – discanon). If you call characters like Rey a Mary Sue and proceed to call Daisy Ridley a real life Mary Sue, you are part of the problem. If you constantly trash characters like Kylo Ren or Young Anakin Skywalker in the and then proceed to make fun of Jake Llyod, Hayden Christensen, or Adam Driver, you are part of the problem. If you trash other fans for a difference of opinion, you are part of the problem. If you spend your entire time bashing the cast and crew and take interviews crop them out of context and create some stupid propaganda out of it all because you hate the new SW movies, you are part of the problem. You don’t have to see the new films, watch the new tv shows or read the new books. To some of us, Star Wars is Star Wars! I know I’m one voice, but I’m tired of this community becoming so toxic. We are fans here whether it is for the expanded universe which has become Legends, or new canon it is still Star Wars. It’s going through changes as a franchise yes, but please as a community can we please start being KIND to each other? Stop the hate. Spread love, please do not make people leave or turn away from something they love over so much negativity!

  80. For me, it’s the wrestling fandom that’s extremely toxic. The fanbase goes into vitriol over the smallest things, and instead of trying to avoid it, I keep going back and reblogging angry posts without thinking if I agree with them or not. I used to be a part of the Steven Universe fandom which was like being knee deep in toxic waste, but it was a different kind of toxicity. The wrestling fandom is more focused on the either/or mentality. You’re either a smark, or an overzealous Roman Reigns fangirl.
    So… Yeah, your advice really helps. But what happens if the fanbase you’re in is just… Constantly toxic? Do you leave?

  81. I hate toxic fandoms. Star Wars especially. I hate having to deal with stupid EU haters spewing lies like "The expanded universe was never canon" or "it was full of contradictions." And other things they moan about in the EU.

  82. well spoken and even more relevant now than when you made this video . Thank you for being a voice of sanity in an insane world.

  83. Hey, as someone who disagrees with everything you have to say…

    Of course, it's easy to call people "toxic" when they aren't agreeing with YOUR opinions.

    Maybe you enjoyed the film…

    So what?

    Those that didn't like it still exist, and we are not toxic, we can see how poorly written scenes, bad character decisions, and stupid dialogue, made for a laughable story about running out of fuel.

    How exactly are we toxic?

    Accepting Disney's new second rate version of Star Wars is toxic.

  84. Yikes. It's hard to believe that people actually get worked up enough over their fandom to harass, dox or send death threats to people they don't agree with. If I don't like what you have to say about what I'm in to, I'll ignore you and move on with my life. If I do debate, I'll give my opinion and reason for it but I won't ever name call or make it personal. Also, it's really okay if people see the fandom differently than you do or get something different out of it. In fact, that might even make it more fun if you're open minded enough.

  85. is the counterpoint to irrational anger for the last jedi, irrational love for an objectively bad film…? ;P

  86. Last Jedi, BvS, Suicide Squad, it's pretty weird to get that angry that somebody doesn't hate the thing you hate.

  87. You'll be suprised

  88. I was part of Skyrim Forums a website for… well. I was active in the fan fiction section. It was a really positive place with a wide variety of skill levels. What was cool is it was encouraging. No-one berated a contributor for what they posted. Which was cool. I feel bad that starting a degee as a mature student pulled me away from my story. Maybe i'll finish it someday.

  89. I'm sorry to say the STAR TREK/STAR WARS fandom has found its very own version of Alex Jones–he calls himself (brace yourself) Lord Doomcock. Wait! It gets better! He wears a kind of red supervillain costume while making his videos on YouTube. Including a full-face-covering helmet! I'm not kidding!!! Then he distorts his voice.
    The fact this man has fans is both hilarious and depressing at the same time.


  91. I get it. Like I've met friends who love ASOIAF yet hate Game of Thrones 🙂

  92. I really agree with point of this video, but still have an general issue with many people confusing toxity with.. Well, things that they are just do not like. And I actually saw it a lot, expecially in SW fandom. Enjoyed the movie? Great. And it is easy to guess you not want hear people critising it, it is understandble. But not all critisism is toxic hate. Sure, if someone harasing actors and creators, and act like douchebag, it is in fact, toxic. But not all the critisism that movie, book, show, game and etc. is bad itself. Many times it is even valid. You do not have agree or even read, you can completly ignore it. But tagging it automatcly as "toxic", because it is something you do not like. It is just not right. I have that strange impression, that, even with fact that most of big fandoms are full of toxicity, at the same point many people just simply using explenation of their own toxic behaviors towards thing they do not like. You think this one pairing is bad? Start saying is abusive or whatever, and go harass fans of it – they are toxic, not you. You do not like someones fanart? Tell artist to stop paint thing that way, because it is somehow bad for whole world – artist is toxic, not you. And it is really growing issue right now.

  93. I can respect the being, but never the words they say. Just because you run away doesn't mean the problem is solved.

  94. I did not like the last Jedi, but not for the same reasons as most guys… I actually really enjoyed the Rose character! I loved the back and forth between Rey and Kylo. I thought what they did with the Luke character could've just been done better… The conflict between Holdo and Poe could've worked a lot better if I was given a little more time to establish an emotional connection with her. But none of this would really made me not like the movie… what's makes me not like the movie is that its two and a half hours of the big ship slowly catching up to the little ship intercut with one bait and switch after another! that's filler!! in the second to last installment of a saga that has more unanswered question than the last season of lost!!! Admittedly, the last Jedi had some of the coolest things I've ever seen in a Star Wars movie, but did we deserve it? …sorry, I meant for this comment to be way shorter… …I just get a lot of crap for not liking that movie and chose to blow off that steam here… for what it's worth I do really enjoy your channel and points of view…

  95. I just found you and I am in love with your content.

  96. "Browsing Twitter" LMAO !! 😜

  97. Fans are idiots. That is all.

  98. well, I used to run a prequel trilogy fandom site, and like I would say like maybe a year or 2 in it got really bad. By the time Attack of the Clones came in it started to fizzle out, and there was less toxicity. I really agree with you about tuning out, but I do think stay productive.

  99. Being a centrist in certain areas gives you an interesting perspective on these things. Almost everybody in almost every area and on almost all sides of any debate or discussion seem to be claiming that the opposing sides exhibit profound amounts of "toxicity", "hatred", and "prejudice that springs from ignorance". The really interesting part is that only those who ever experienced the joy of sitting in the middle can ever see the reality that they're all correct most of the time. Every side seems to be just as hateful, just as toxic, just as ignorant, and just as prejudiced as the others. Everyone wants to point to every one else and say "you're the problem" without ever looking at themselves and realizing that every time you claim that the internet is toxic, you are just as much "the internet" as everyone else and you might not realize that it probably applies to yourself even more than those you are pointing at. When you claim that "people suck" (or any varying form of this pronouncement), well, you are a "person" and you're quite probably just as bad or worse than the average person. Especially in the tendency we all share to make vast generalizations and dehumanize everyone (including ourselves) in the process.

    Unfortunately the only way to mitigate your own ignorance, prejudice, toxicity, and hatred is to look at yourself and your own actions/words first and then engage in discussions with people who disagree with you in order to broaden your own perspective. Everyone wants to surround themselves with everyone and everything that only agrees with them so they can hug themselves at night and say "I'm one of the good guys and all of them are the bad guys". Sad to say, you probably aren't one of the "good guys" unless you are actively trying to understand and engage with as many perspectives as possible, ESPECIALLY the ones that you shy away from the most (or, maybe more accurately, the ones that offer direct opposition to your own perspective). Intellectual and emotional isolationists are rarely, if ever, the "good guys" and history has played out this simple virtuous principle of the value of open discussion and intellectual inquiry time and time again with almost invariable results.

    The great gift and curse of the internet is that it immediately puts every perspective right in front of your face, and if you only want to live in your own friendly little world of the solitary perspective that you have in an intellectual safe space where you are always right and never wrong, then the direct exposure to intellectual diversity or diversity of perspective can be jarring to the point of insanity and/or extreme emotional instability. If you do not know multiple sides of any particular discussion, then you don't really know your own and most certainly are not equipped to defend it without violence or extreme measures of control and totalitarianism. The internet is the new public square and if it is not to be free to everyone and every perspective then it will quickly dissolve into nothing more than a propaganda machine to placate and control the masses for the benefit of the elite few. We need to erase the idea (or, maybe more accurately, self-entitled expectation) that you will ever get to go directly into the middle of the public square surrounded by only those who you like or agree with, stand on a 10 foot tower constructed just for you, scream out your own poorly informed opinions, and that no one should be allowed to disagree (even vehemently) or hold you accountable for them. We all need to interact with the internet with great care and caution, understanding that many of our opinions might be stupid and uninformed and if they cannot withstand scrutiny then we not only might just deserve whatever (verbal) backlash we might receive but we should really rethink our positions in a pursuit of what is true and what is best rather than based on an assumed validity founded on nothing more than our own emotional attachment to those positions.

    If you are wondering why I would think that a video on "fandom" would warrant a discussion on these subjects, then let me explain my position. Art and entertainment has been the primary vehicle for propagandizing the general populace on political, intellectual, and moral/emotional positions in a way that almost completely bypasses the average person's scrutiny through logic and reason. In this way it can perpetuate absolutely untenable positions throughout society that people will immediately defend through their (absolutely intentionally sculpted) emotional and unthinking attachment to entertaining characters and stories that were only created as a vehicle to deliver its creator's positions. Unfortunately, this tool will frequently get people to unintentionally defend positions that go against their own moral principles similar to how people will frequently defend their own friends and family even when they are wrong. It is impossible to create any work of art or entertainment that any large number of people will actually pay to consume without making many moral, political, emotional, and intellectual arguments and if you think that any massively distributed product has escaped this rule or that this does not have any profound manipulative consequences on society as a whole, then you are a fool.

    This brings me to my purpose behind my arguments. If you are to have any reasonable expectations to have an opinion on any subject, but still have an expectation to not have to face strong opposition, then you should keep those opinions to yourself and your small circle of friends that are agreeable to the degree of being patronizing. Ignorance is bliss, after all, and there is no benefit to begrudge those who pursue that bliss if they keep their ignorance to themselves. But realize that only the most ridiculous people can ever expect to go shouting their opinions across social media (or the public square) and expect no strong opposition or scrutiny, especially the opposition of the angry counter-positions. This is just as true (if not more so) when it comes to art and entertainment considering its drastic impact on society and culture as I have argued. Open public social forums should be owned by the public as a whole, not by special interest groups, and any forum that is not exclusionary to a special interest should thereby be considered "open" and "public". Furthermore, those special interest groups should relegate their special interest discussions to special interest forums where they can quite justifiably filter out those who do not belong to or agree with the special interest community. Through this, they can then form their own personal little hug circle where they can say:
    "I'm right about this thing and you're right about this thing and we're right about this thing because we , having the secret assumed and completely isolated knowledge of the unquestioned truth and happenstance corresponding enjoyment, agree. And thus agreement equals truth as is shown by the equation of the circle of true agreement of the knower of the assumed knowledge and the partaker of the happenstance corresponding enjoyment. And being right about this thing means that the thing is also good. And in this I am good and you are good and we are good. And all being good and right and true means that the opinion is verified. And in this I am verified and you are verified and we are verified. And through the verification of the goodness and the rightness and the truthfulness we have thus verified the very sound equation of the circle of true agreement of the knower of the assumed knowledge and the partaker of the happenstance corresponding enjoyment…." ad infinitum.

    In order to maintain a free society, we need to stop this childish obsession of expecting absolute privacy in publicly shared spaces. It is unjustifiable to state opinions publicly and expect to be able to dictate the response of others within your own little box of "acceptable responses". If other people are not PHYSICALLY infringing upon you, then it is immoral that anyone should be able to determine what other's can or cannot do/say, no matter how distasteful you may find their positions to be.

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